Wahammer tank wip

[Billabong]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post on this forum, and I figured I would show what i have been working on. I did notice there is mostly character work on here. So I dont know if this will get much feedback or not. but might as well give it a shot.

This is a personal project I have been working on lately.
Poly modeled in 3Ds max
I will be doing most of the texturing in BodyPaint. It will probably be around Jan. before I can get back to this as I got nailed with a lot of work this month.

Thanks again for looking.

-B157

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[PascalR]

Cool model! I like the back very much. I was about to say that the edges feel quite sharp and perfectly straight as if it just came out of the factory, but then I had a look at some reference on the web, and this looks actually correct.
Still it be nice to make it a bit more used even maybe damaged?
Rust around the rivet would be nice in the textures like here:

http://ericcanada.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/tank_color.jpg

Keep it up!

Cheers

P.

PS: how many polygons do you have here?

[Billabong]

Thanks so much for replying Pascal.

Yeah I'm definitely going to try give it that rusted look. Right now with all the bolts, the polycount is around 6 million. I may try to normal map the bolts or just paint them on the final or both.I would like to stay away from making this a low poly model, Any suggestions?

My end goal that ive made for myself recently is to concentrate solely on vehicles of all make(helicopters,tanks,cars,VTOL's,etc). I would like to contribute to one film before my career is over with, so I thought I would try and just concentrate one area of modeling, because as of right now my portfolio is a little random. I was told that I need to really emphasize on one paticular area of modeling.

Any thoughts or suggestions.

Thanks so much again

-B

[PascalR]

6 million is quite a lot, any wireframe? I wonder if some parts could be done as subd, like the cannon. Rivets could definetly be extracted displacement maps. But then it depends on what your render engine "prefers", HD poly model or subd+displacement.
Knowing how to do a bit of everything is good as you can jump on different kind of task, but to get noticed, I would say you need to focus on a specific area and become better than others. I think your way of thinking makes sense, we do have hard surface modelers in our team (and damn good ones ;)

Cheers

P.

[Billabong]

hey thats good to know that you have some hard surface modelers. IM sure it will help me out a great deal.

Also I apologize, I had forgetten that I've optimized this model some already. With all the Turbosmooths on, the poly count comes to 2.5 million. Here are the wireframes.

Thanks again for all the help

-B
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[JohnSG]

Hey Man.

Nice to see some Hard Surface stuff being posted amongst all this Creature stuff. (The creature stuff is awesome by the way Pascal :D)
Unlike the most of the other guys here I am mainly a Hard Surface Modeler.

The tank is looking pretty cool. The only comments i could make are

1- The structural pieces of the tank could be broken up into more section. there are alot of very large single poly pieces which when broken up, will help to add detail and bring a better sense of scale to the model. A tip is to always try imagine how you would physical build the object in real life. If the object seems to big then it probably is.

2- Sometimes you need to be careful how closely you match your reference. The Warhammer tanks you are using as reference are plastic injection molded pieces, copying them to much or closely will tend to make your pieces look like they meant to be plastic too. Try mix in some real world tank mechanics / physics too. eg: the tank threads, there connection need to be a bit beefier and the connection piece between two links could be made into a new seperate link, which would also increase the flexibility of the track.

All in all pretty minor stuff but these are the kind of details that can take a model from 90% realistic to 100%.

Hope this Helps :thumbsup:

John

[PascalR]

Great to have you here John:welcome:

John is surely one of the best persons to give you feedback on hard surface modeling :bouncy:

Happy new year!

P.

[Billabong]

Wow, thank you so much for lending a hand John.

I apologize for sounding a little dumb about this, but you could you explain a little more about what you meant, when you said to break the pieces up a little more?

Its really great to get some feedback from a actual Pro hard surface modeler.

-B

[JohnSG]

Hey B

No its not a silly question, I did wonder last night if what i was trying to say would be clear enough without pictures. Please Find Attached

Please let me know if you have any other questions

John

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[Billabong]

Now I understand. Thanks so much for taking the time John.

Ill report back in when I get some free time away from my job to show you some updates

Thanks so much again

-B

[Billabong]

This is a little off topic, but I had a question for you John and Pascal.

I have been considering that I should be learning Maya, because I want to model for films. Does this really matter anymore. I know learning another program could only benefit me, but at the same time this would take away from my, building my portfolio time.

Please don't think this is a "which app is better"question, because its not, I'm just not sure if its necessary, Do you guys at Weta require knowledge of Maya for modelers or do you guys solely hire on talent.

Once again, I'm not trying to get a job with you guys or anything and I know all studios are different, but I think this would give me some idea of what I should be doing.

Thanks again for all your help.

-B

[JohnSG]

Hey

Its a good question. And one alot of people make there own opinion on without asking people in the know.

At the end of the day not matter what program you use a polygon is a polygon. And most of the big 3D packages Maya, Max, Xsi, all have the same tools just generally in a different layout or called under a different name.

Weta does mainly use Maya for the majority of modeling. But with that said I do know people who have been hired without a single days experience of Maya. Usually these people will have had a good level of experience with another 3d package. If you have the time it will not hurt to try learning a new package.

Depending on what area you are looking into creature or hardsurface you would have to display a good inderstanding of that area.

For Hardsurface they would look for a good understanding of machinery and physics (by physics eg: building a bridge that looks strong enough to take the load of whats on it). Many occasions I have been given artwork that can not be built in 3d as its only art from 1 dimensions, so you have to get creative and work out how it would work without changing the design too much or at all.

As for creature stuff and what they look for Pascal would be the right guy to talk to.

Hope this helps to answer your questions, any more don't hesitate to ask.

John

[Billabong]

Ok, that does help ,thank you. I am by preference and by obsession a hard surface modeler, and basically its all I've ever done. whether its product or Archi viz.

I think your right, it would benefit me to learn another package. So with that being said, once I finish the tank I will take the plunge into Maya.

So in films hard surface modelers are required to not only model mechanical type objects, but structures as well?Or do they hire environment artists to do structures? Only reason I ask is a another artist, said my portfolio was a little to random and I should pick one area, like vehicles and just specialize in those, I always thought, that the more I showed I knew how to do, the more valuable I would be.

Thanks again John

-B

[JohnSG]

That question is very much down to the way each studio runs and the size of it. The Models department at Weta is currently 50 - 60 people, which is quite big for a models dept. Due to its size we are able to have a mixture of specialist and generalist. Our Models Dept are split into creatures, hard-surface, facial, environments and fur. Around half of the dept would be specialists in there areas, while the rest are generalist who can take on any general tasks regardless of what it may be. Its a hard question to answer :banghead: . At the end of the day its all down to what the Head of Dept is looking for at the time.

It could be worth doing some research into the studios you are going to apply too.

John

[Billabong]

That makes complete sense John. Thank you. I think for now, I will stick with vehicles and really try to build that part of my portfolio up, once I feel its strong enough, maybe then I will venture into some more environment stuff.

I can't thank you enough, for taking the time to help me

-B

[MiguelAngeloCBT]

Really nice model, sharp and clean geometry! I like it!

Personally, I see 3D modeling\art\whatever as the same as drawing: if you are able to draw faces\bodies, you are able to draw environments or mechanical stuff, because the base is all the same or identical, is just a matter of applying the same theories and techniques and of course... practice a lot. And if you can mix together all the "genres" of drawing, better!

Keep it up, I'm enjoying this one!

all the best,
-Miguel

[Billabong]

Thanks Malanjo,
Unfortunately at the moment I can't draw very well, but i did purchase Scott Robertson's DVD on basic perspective drawing last week and I have started practicing for an hour every night before bed, drawing straight lines. My goal is to be able to draw perspective vehicles and such. I've got a very a long way to go yet, but Im enjoying it.

Thanks for replying

-B

[MiguelAngeloCBT]

Oh, right! Nice choice! Scott's DVDs are great!

Go for it! :thumbsup: Show us more! :notWorthy:

all the best,
-Miguel

[Billabong]

I dont have much to show, but I added some brackets around the rim near the tread to break it up some. I do see what you mean now. I think ill add some more rivets to those brackets to give it a better look.

Im still a little undecided about how I should break up the steel plating going around the corners. I could add brackets, but thats what all those rivets are for. Im sure something will come to me, I just need to think about it for a while

-B

http://www.cgfeedback.com/cgfeedback/attachment.php?attachmentid=216&stc=1&d=1263182822

[mjackson126]

thats a really cool tank! good job.

[Billabong]

Hey John, I didn't want you think I haven't been working on it. I have, but im only getting about an hr or two every other night at the moment. This has been one crazy month. Hopefully though in Feb. it will slow down some and I can really commit to some time on this.

Thanks MJackson

-B

[JohnSG]

Hey

Don't stress about it dude, Hardsurface takes time. When ever its ready I am keen to take a look.

John

[Billabong]

Thanks John

-B

[Billabong]

Well I finally have an update. Ive added a cable to the front to kind of break up that boringness that was going on there. Ive also added some vertical brackets to the top cab portion above the cannon. I plan on adding more, but I just want to make sure that these look ok, before I proceed. Next I will work on the tread

Thanks for looking

-B

http://www.cgfeedback.com/cgfeedback/attachment.php?attachmentid=594&stc=1&d=1266172737

http://www.cgfeedback.com/cgfeedback/attachment.php?attachmentid=595&stc=1&d=1266172756

http://www.cgfeedback.com/cgfeedback/attachment.php?attachmentid=596&stc=1&d=1266172770

[Kris]

You're the reason cavemen chiseled on walls. This is looking tighter as it goes. Detail... more ... detail.. :)

[Billabong]

haha, thanks Kris

I went ahead and just remodeled the track, the more I looked at the old ones, the more I didnt like them at all. I got the reference for these off of the Bergepanzer. I think these will look a lot better on it

-B


http://www.cgfeedback.com/cgfeedback/attachment.php?attachmentid=597&stc=1&d=1266214141

http://www.cgfeedback.com/cgfeedback/attachment.php?attachmentid=598&stc=1&d=1266214141

[JohnSG]

Looking Good,

Eager for more updates :bouncy:

[Billabong]

Hey thanks John, I think im gonna take the rubber part of tract into Mudbox and sculpt some cuts and dents into those 6. I think that will be enough to not really show repeatedness in the tract.

-B

[JohnSG]

Just keep in mind less it more. Make sure all the shapes you put in are very generic and simple, if you try and add a complex shape it would show up when you repeat it. :thumbsup:

[Billabong]

Good point. Do you think those 6 are enough or should I just do more. I mean not a lot of this track isn't going to be seen anyway. most of it covered up or facing down. I guess I could just bring in the ones that are seen and sculpt those.

here is a reference

Thanks John

http://data3.primeportal.net/recovery/ulrich_wrede/bergepanzer_2_a2-y_570_802/images/bergepanzer_2_a2-y_570_802_02_of_42.jpg

-B

[JohnSG]

I think you have to options.

1 - Leave it clean for as the rest of your model is very clean. And adding the detail to one area will highlight the fact that you have not given the rest of the model the same attention to detail. You never want anything to stand out to much,

2 - Add some wear and tear to the track pads, but in turn you will have to follow on with this and add wear and tear to the whole tank, showing it use. Small dents here and there the odd bolt missing, some damage from gun fire etc....

option 2 will take a bit more time, but if you have it then why not, it will look great. If you plan to texture it as well, keep in mind what damage you may do in texture and where and help the textured areas with some model damage too. This may sound very obvious, but i have seen my share of vehicles that are super clean and they have just tried to damage it in textures, and it just doesn't work. The two must be used together.

[Billabong]

I think I like option 2. I mean Ive been on this for what seems like a lifetime now, why stop now, right?

Although this type of damaging is very new to me, so hopefully you wont get to tired of me screwing up to much.

Thanks again John

-B

[JohnSG]

We all learned to do it one way or another and we have all screwed it up and some point or another. And sometimes I still do screw it up. :thumbsup:

The biggest thing to watch for is clean straight lines, it just screams CG. and what is worse even if the object has clean lines, how we visualise the objects in our minds will tell us that it doesn't, long straight panels like the ones over the tracks, feel free to add a tiny bit of warp to them just to break up those straight lines, but also don't go crazy with it :)

As for damage, DO NOT JUST MAKE IT UP, if you do it will look made up 9 times out of 10. Find some pictures and try replicate the damage, Metal (for tanks) gets damaged in a certain ways, making it up will more often then not make it look like putty. Also if you are bending metal, be aware to preserve your volumes.

Feel free to ask any questions any time.

[Billabong]

Thank you so much John.This will truly be a test for me. I will work on it and report back when I have something to show

Thanks again

-B

[Billabong]

Hey John if you have two seconds, can you take a look at this real quick.

I wanted to do a test render real quick with the links to check their proportions. I had to widen the space on the tank where the tracks are, just to fit them in there, but do the tracks look to small to you or do they look right?

I'm deff going to have to optimize these bad boys. Just from duplicating that part of the tract, took my poly count up to 12 million,LOL

Thanks man



-B

http://www.cgfeedback.com/cgfeedback/attachment.php?attachmentid=624&stc=1&d=1266293620

[JohnSG]

Hey Man

Hmm.... I think for this tank the pads could be bigger, I think i would take one and double the size so it take up the one beside and above it. Which will also help to reduce the poly count.

I get the feeling you thought they might be too small by the question. A good rule of thumb is

"if you think there is something odd about something, more often then not other people will too".

[Billabong]

Hey John,

Thanks for getting back. I did think they were to small. The only problem with it taking up the one beside it, is I will have to redesign the hook that's on the bottom, that goes in between the wheels to propel it. Notice the gap in between the two. Should I try to just double it long ways first, or do you think I just redesign it?

Thanks again

-B

[JohnSG]

Hey John,

Thanks for getting back. I did think they were to small. The only problem with it taking up the one beside it, is I will have to redesign the hook that's on the bottom, that goes in between the wheels to propel it. Notice the gap in between the two. Should I try to just double it long ways first, or do you think I just redesign it?

Thanks again

-B

Go with what you think is best. :thumbsup:

This is a very typical situation you will find you come across in film. And more often then not it will be left down to you to figure it all out, before showing the CG supervisor.

[Billabong]

That's what I needed to know.

Thanks John

-B

[dr.kim]

Hi Billabong,

Nice clean model. I'm doing hard surface modeling myself too. I never knew hard surface modeling can be this difficult.
I agree with John that it'll be too hard to do damages and "worn out metals" all with textures. Textures can you only so far. Maybe take it into zbrush and add battle damage scar, dents and scratches there? just a suggestion.
Can't wait to see it with textures.


Good work.

[Billabong]

Hey thanks Dr.Kim. Yeah, Hardsurface is well.... hard, but it is so gratifying. I'm obsessed with it.

Unfortunately I don't have Zbrush, but I do have Mudbox, so thats what i will be using

Thanks again
-B

[Billabong]

Well, here is an update.

I widened the tracts to make them larger and put some spare tracts hanging in front, just in case.

Let me know what you think. John if you think those look good. Then I am Mudbox bound on it for the tracks.

Right now the poly count shot up to 40 million. but that is because of the tracks. I'm either going to turn them into proxies or run the pro-optimizer on them, once that are sculpted

Thanks for looking


-B

http://www.cgfeedback.com/cgfeedback/attachment.php?attachmentid=656&stc=1&d=1266467558



http://www.cgfeedback.com/cgfeedback/attachment.php?attachmentid=657&stc=1&d=1266467392

http://www.cgfeedback.com/cgfeedback/attachment.php?attachmentid=658&stc=1&d=1266467401

[JohnSG]

Hey.

Good to see some more updates.

Try to remember that the tips and suggestions i give are not for me. They are so you will ask the same questions on your next model or your next update. Ultimately leading you in the right direction and the right frame of mind for a hard-surface modeler

You asked me what i think, Well what do you think :D. A over B

I flipped the top image so it was facing the same way.

659

It looks great, are you happy with the changes, and can you see the difference between the feel in the model. The top one feels light and plastic, while the bottom one feels big and heavy.

Keep up the good work and always keep checking back to your reference images. The biggest mistake alot of people make is to do something from memory, or what they think it would be like.

[Billabong]

Actually , I think I am happy with it John. I appreciate your patience and all your help so far, and yeah i can see a big difference in the two

Damage time!

-B

[PascalR]

Looks great! Very nice to see before and after :thumbsup:
Great work Billabong!

[Billabong]

Thank so much Pascal

-B

[Billabong]

Hey John,

I had some free time tonight, so I thought I would get in some sculpting practice on the tracks. I only did two pads so far and the reason being is, I wanted to make sure I was well.... on the right track.

I noticed here in this link http://www.ultrashock.com/a/preview/593-tank-track-texture.jpg there is small cracks on them. I'm still trying to achieve that result, but havent quite figured it out yet.

Thanks for taking the time

http://www.cgfeedback.com/cgfeedback/attachment.php?attachmentid=763&stc=1&d=1267159580

[Tom]

I didn't know you can use mud box?

[Billabong]

Some of the padding work is done. I wanted them to look used but not destroyed.

-B

http://www.cgfeedback.com/cgfeedback/attachment.php?attachmentid=792&stc=1&d=1267631958

[JohnSG]

Hey

I think this is another situation of less it more.

I think your previous image feels alot better. But i would easy off on it, this is an area that you can also use textures to show some detail. See attached ref

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[Billabong]

Thanks John, Ill work on that

-B

[nightwoodwolf]

very nice modeling ... keep it up

[Billabong]

Thank you man.

It looks like I may be going to Atlanta for 3 months to work for a studio. So i guess this will have to be put on hold for a while.

-B