Mike Nash - Fast Skin, back to basics.

[MikeANash]

Hey all,

I've been trying out some more basic methods for creating a skin diffuse based on zapps original .pdf tutorial.

I thought I would share it with everyone.
I actually found it much easier to paint my diffuse using this method and let the skin shader do its thang.

Example scene below.

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Example scene:
Example scene you can use and abuse :) (http://rapidshare.com/files/405603108/Nash_Fast_Skin_.rar.html)
Skin+ plus shader is needed, you can download it here: (http://mentalraytips.blogspot.com/2008/04/beauty-isnt-only-skin-deep-combining.html)
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Diffuse
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[PascalR]

Great stuff Mike, that's very generous of you to share your tips and scenes!
I'll definitely check them out:sw:
Nice work!clap

[Rink]

Hi mike,
Thank you for sharing your tips, but it's finish with rapidshare.:(
I've definitely try to compare your render with the same model.

[PascalR]

Oops, how big are the files Mike? Maybe I can upload them on my server.
I 'd love these to work indeed:D

cheers

P.

[MikeANash]

Sorry guys, I have re-uploaded the file using my account, so it should stay up for a while.

Thanks for the offer Pascal, I'll probably upload some more scene files for people later on, so I might need to take you up on that later :)

http://rapidshare.com/files/405603108/Nash_Fast_Skin_.rar.html

Just a note on the multiply for the Diffuse_Pores, it works much better when you composite them together properly in Photoshop.
I'm painting the two maps separately since Zbrush doesn't support layers :banghead:

[Rink]

Houra,
You are a great man, mille merci :dance:

[PascalR]

Indeed,
:sw:plugged:sw:

[MisterE]

Thx for sharing this, Mike! Been a real fan of your latest renders.

Unfortunately, I cannot for the life of me to get this to open. Says missing "mentalray.dlz Class: SSS Fast Skin +" But that's impossible since I verified its' existence and have rendered using Fast Skin + before. Using Max 2011 x64. Did you by chance create this using the 32-bit version or an older version?

Anyone else getting this?

[Ken]

hi Mike,
Thank you for sharing!! it will be really really helpful for me.
I'd like to know more about the tips that you have. Great work, anyway! clap

[adamlewis]

Thx for sharing this, Mike! Been a real fan of your latest renders.

Unfortunately, I cannot for the life of me to get this to open. Says missing "mentalray.dlz Class: SSS Fast Skin +" But that's impossible since I verified its' existence and have rendered using Fast Skin + before. Using Max 2011 x64. Did you by chance create this using the 32-bit version or an older version?

Anyone else getting this?

I haven't checked out the scene, but it might be because he's using the enhanced version of the Fast SSS shader, released by Zap Anderson (mental ray employee) on his blog. The blog post with download links for the shader can be found here: ( http://mentalraytips.blogspot.com/2008/04/beauty-isnt-only-skin-deep-combining.html ). Try installing the shader and see if that solves your problem.

[MisterE]

I haven't checked out the scene, but it might be because he's using the enhanced version of the Fast SSS shader, released by Zap Anderson (mental ray employee) on his blog. The blog post with download links for the shader can be found here: ( http://mentalraytips.blogspot.com/2008/04/beauty-isnt-only-skin-deep-combining.html ). Try installing the shader and see if that solves your problem.

You are a lifesaver! I actually Google'd my error, tried reinstalling Max twice, and even tried FBX importing it into an older version of Max, all to no avail. So, thanks for that, Adam :) For the record, Zap's Mental Ray tips indicate to move the .mi file to Max root \mentalray\shaders_autoload\include\ . Since Max 2011 has a slightly different folder structure, it should be moved to Max 2011 root \mentalimages\shaders_autoload\mentalray\include

Onto the scene. Initial impressions: Wow, I'm sure this type of setup will now be looked over, studied, even copied many times over. This is a fantastic looking shader. It strikes a good balance of having a generous amount of SSS - but w/o going overboard - and, similarly not going overboard w/ the specularity. In fact, in this particular setup, it's hard to even notice it.

Will play w/ different lighting and environment settings, but I actually prefer this look after getting too many results and seeing so many other renders that blow it w/ artificial looking reflections/specularity.

Once again, kudos should be given to Mike for sharing this amazing scene! Another thanks to Adam for the Mental Ray tip.

[MikeANash]

Cheers guys.

MisterE - I'm using Skin+ shader since the reflection control is alot better.
I've been using this skin shader for a while now and the more textures you use with it the worse the sss effects look.

I know people are switching over to Vray for the skin, but I still think it's a much better skin shader overall if you use it the right way.
I find the Vray SSS shader produces more of that latex movie mask effect with over done reds. After all its an overall SSS shader unlike Mental Rays dedicated Skin Shader.

[Infinite]

Cheers guys.

MisterE - I'm using Skin+ shader since the reflection control is alot better.
I've been using this skin shader for a while now and the more textures you use with it the worse the sss effects look.

I know people are switching over to Vray for the skin, but I still think it's a much better skin shader overall if you use it the right way.
I find the Vray SSS shader produces more of that latex movie mask effect with over done reds. After all its an overall SSS shader unlike Mental Rays dedicated Skin Shader.

I agree with you here Mike, Mental Ray Skin+ is one of the best shaders there is for skin. VraySSS2 is ok but it takes way to long to render when compared with Mental Ray. MR is pretty fast especially on bigger renders. Plus Vray lacks proper backscattering. Although Vimmy and Luc seem to have mastered it quite well in Max.

I also find you can get a way with allot with Skin+ by using only a few textures (COL, BMP, SPC, REF) even just using one colour texture with some colour swatches in place for the SSS slots.

[adamlewis]

Speaking of speed, I'm checking out the scene right now, and while the shader is indeed quite awesome (thanks for sharing, Mike), the render feels a tad slow, at least when compared with Vray (and this seems contrary to your results, Lee, which makes this all extra confusing). I'm extremely inexperienced with Mental Ray, so I have no idea what sort of render times I should expect. I'm using an i7 @ 3.8ghz with 4 gigs of ram, and the scene renders in 41 seconds. What kind of times is everyone else getting?

[Infinite]

Speaking of speed, I'm checking out the scene right now, and while the shader is indeed quite awesome (thanks for sharing, Mike), the render feels a tad slow, at least when compared with Vray (and this seems contrary to your results, Lee, which makes this all extra confusing). I'm extremely inexperienced with Mental Ray, so I have no idea what sort of render times I should expect. I'm using an i7 @ 3.8ghz with 4 gigs of ram, and the scene renders in 41 seconds. What kind of times is everyone else getting?

I havent tried that scene (I dont have time atm) but to go by other models and setups that I use, combined with sIBL rendering. I generally get render times of about 20-30 minutes at 1600x1200 with Vray compare to Mental Ray at about 5-10 minutes, depending on conditions etc.

Same models, similar scenes and very close shader settings compared to Vimmy and Luc. When your trying to bang out lots of test renders at high resolution, Vray becomes quite tedious to wait for.

If I get time I will test out Mike's example files.

[adamlewis]

Lee, I find that very surprising, for sake of comparison I somewhat replicated Mike's render setup in Vray, here's what 54 seconds gets me:

http://adamvfx.com/mikebustvray.jpg

Granted, it's definitely not as nice as Mike's result, but the shader is extremely simple. Only two textures: the color composite in the sss_color slot, and the bump map, with most of the shader settings at the default of the "pink skin" preset. I wonder if there may be some issues with your image sampler settings. I certainly wouldn't claim to be a Vray expert (far from it), but I've made some pretty significant gains in my render times through relatively simple tweaks. I'd be happy to share my settings with you if you're interested.

As an aside, I apologize for somewhat derailing the topic with my Vray blabber, thought it is sometimes hard to avoid in discussions of this nature.

[Infinite]

Lee, I find that very surprising, for sake of comparison I somewhat replicated Mike's render setup in Vray, here's what 54 seconds gets me:

Granted, it's definitely not as nice as Mike's result, but the shader is extremely simple. Only two textures: the color composite in the sss_color slot, and the bump map, with most of the shader settings at the default of the "pink skin" preset. I wonder if there may be some issues with your image sampler settings. I certainly wouldn't claim to be a Vray expert (far from it), but I've made some pretty significant gains in my render times through relatively simple tweaks. I'd be happy to share my settings with you if you're interested.

As an aside, I apologize for somewhat derailing the topic with my Vray blabber, thought it is sometimes hard to avoid in discussions of this nature.

Well that certainly looks pretty and very quick but I wonder how the render times would fair with larger texture maps, more objects like teeth, eyes, with some raytracing and more complex specularity and blend reflection settings on the skin.

Without seeing what is in that scene with regards to render settings, lights etc it's hard to know. Of course you can get much quicker times if your render settings are simpler, it's great for testing.

I find the best way to really road test a skin setup is bung it through a bunch of sIBL sets and multiple light scenes. Therefore if your trying to pull of a realistic character it helps to have everything in situ to really see how well the shader behaves.

[adamlewis]

All very good points, Lee. In this case though, the render settings are fairly rich; siBL, gi scattering, trace reflections, with a healthy amount of gloss and shadow samples. Based on previous tests, I would estimate that even with some heavier geometry and a few 4k textures for displacement, color etc. it would still only take about 2-4 minutes for a 1000x1000 pixel render of the previous shot.

[Infinite]

All very good points, Lee. In this case though, the render settings are fairly rich; siBL, gi scattering, trace reflections, with a healthy amount of gloss and shadow samples. Based on previous tests, I would estimate that even with some heavier geometry and a few 4k textures for displacement, color etc. it would still only take about 2-4 minutes for a 1000x1000 pixel render of the previous shot.

Mmmm, big EDIT here on what I originally posted. Well I am not sure, perhaps my current settings I use are totally wrong. I get mental render times.

I learned some basic stuff from Luc over MSN and I don't really know Vray all that well. Perhaps my bodged settings are out of whack! :rofl:

Your quick test did look quite nice and seems very quick.

[adamlewis]

Hey Infinite, I saw your original post, and I do agree with your overall sentiment. I haven't truly put Vray through its paces the way you have with Mental Ray or Vray, and frankly I don't know a thing about Mental Ray, so it would be unfair of me to pass judgment on it so soon. MR FastSkin has been battle tested in scores of films and is beyond reproach, while Vray FastSSS2 is a relative newcomer to the scene. I'm very much a pragmatist when it comes to software, so I'll be the first to change sides if I find a solution that better meets my needs for speed and quality, which is why I'm quite eager to determine the strengths and weaknesses of the various render engines available. I'm working on translating some of my Vray scenes over to MR with the help of Mike's test scene, so I should soon have a much fuller understanding of how the two packages compare.

[Rink]

Hi all,
Some modest tests rernders with VrayC4D. Helpful way to compare with the same model.
http://pintotronik.free.fr/mages/SSS5-girlnikeNash-exampleret.jpg

Light Dome Hdr.
http://pintotronik.free.fr/mages/SSS5-girlnikeNash-example%C2%B08hdr%C2%B0.jpg

[Eshta]

Thanks for posting the file.
Can you please make a screen of the texture connection.
I use Maya. and Im trying to get the same result as you do
Or maybe you can tell me where did you connect the following

Diffuse.jpg
Diffuse_Pores.jpg
Pin-Up_Diffuse_Makeup.jpg
New_Peach_Fuzz.jpg
Spec.jpg

Thanks
Note: I usually put >
diffuse texture in the "overall diffuse" of the SSS
Spec > In Gloss of the mia_material

[ashaiad]

I'm not a MAX user, but here is the graph
You can get the same idea using Maya ( no need for the mi file) just plug the sss in the mia addtioanl diffuse and make sure u use the light map in the SG node of the mia

[ashaiad]

here is my test using Maya.. same idea jsut diffrent UI ;)

http://www.cgfeedback.com/cgfeedback/attachment.php?attachmentid=2633&d=1281626389

[keraj37]

Many thanks Mike, you helped a lot, cheers

[SorinLupu]

Great info Mike! and I think this could be a successful Sticky Thread. :dance:

[argoabba]

Thank you Mike for this piece of gold! I explored your shader and tried to apply to my scene with great results. My impressions/questions:

WOWs:
-Using AO/Refl shader on Diffuse slot is superb idea for realistic effect! I replicated it on my scene. :love:
-seems this face is wonderfull part of your Pin-up lady work. Hopefully this model somewhere is available full.

Q:
-why you decided to use "Gamma Gain" for some layers? I cant get idea of this.