Industry brouhaha

[El Burritoh]

A couple of stories have popped up recently and I'm interested to see what people here think about them.

The first is illustrated by the whole Activision Cuts Staff (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=59&t=853631&page=1&pp=15) thread on CG Talk, which reports and then discusses "unscrupulous" business practices by Activision and other big video game publishers.

The second may be illustrated by a recent open letter by Lee Stranahan to James Cameron (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lee-stranahan/open-letter-to-james-came_b_451922.html) about the working conditions of VFX artists. He also has a podcast here (http://www.fxguide.com/qt/2149/fxpodcast-an-open-letter-to-james-cameron), and a related CG Talk thread here (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=2&t=851240&page=1&pp=40).

Seems like a good deal of discontent is being experienced by a segment of the industry. But I currently work alongside a former ILM guy who talked about reasonable hours and overtime pay there. Sounds quite fair, actually. I know our own studio, despite being small, overworked and underpaid, has a very decent, if not great work environment. And we all know of other studios where the artists and technicians are treated very well.

That said, there's no doubt many artists get the shaft, so to speak. It' a brutal reality to come to for newcomers, in fact.

Does anyone here have any insight on this stuff, and whether things are really as bad as they say? Or are these complaints by a minority of people (who may have legitimate discontent in their own case)? It's all business at the end of the day, sadly, and I agree that the gaming industry is developing some bad trends in that respect, concerning their artists. But is it driven by the recession, or is this normal business? And what of the VFX world? Are there really only a few isolated studios where artists are valued?

These days, I'm just grateful to have a job (and one that I enjoy, at that) despite the occasionally brutal hours. But I would be worried if the industry at large undervalues its workforce that much, because I have plans and goals and some of those goals may require a move to a higher-end segment of the industry. I don't like the idea of trading that higher-end work experience for undervalued efforts and disrespect.

I tend to think some people are making a mountain out of mole-hill, or are at least trying to get their experience accepted as the norm. I particularly liked Leigh's response in the Stranahan thread here. But then I wonder what the rest of us are supposed to make of all this noise.

I dunno. Maybe you don't have anything to say on this matter, but this is the "Blah Blah" section after all...

[bneall]

Who is Lee Stranahan and why does he think he represents me.

Every company that I've worked at has treated me amazing, and the wages are completely acceptable and sometimes great. While I wouldn't argue with royalties, I won't demand it either. We have it amazingly easy, the overall pay is good, you get to mess around on computers for video games and movies, the kind of stuff we would nerd out to and enjoy regardless if it was our profession..

There are large companies that have been known to "mistreat" employees, the biggest one I know of is EA Games. Only guess what, I also know lots of people that completely LOVE working there. You only hear negative stories from the bitter hard to work with people about these sort of things, in MOST cases.

All I can say, I'm glad I get to work with technology and art for a living, do it comfortably, and also get more then acceptable wages for it. And I'm super grateful how I'm treated and super lucky to have this opportunity. I'm sure there are millions of people that would kill to be so pampered.

I can rant more, but lets see where this goes.

[El Burritoh]

Actually, I don't really know who Lee Stranahan is! The name rings a bell, perhaps the author of a book I read once, but I don't know the guy well enough to have an opinion on him. In this case he's just the guy making the noise.

Honestly, I was a little taken aback by his claims, because the stories I've heard have mostly been about great experiences (which is another thing that has motivated me into this field). I'm glad to hear your experiences have been so positive!

The more I read about this, the more I think Stranahan is just wanting to make noise in the U.S. and just get attention.

[migusan76]

So I guess the first thing is really who the hell is lee stranahan...? I saw this letter a while back and really didn't pay it much mind because it sounded more like a bunch of whining to me. Now that I really think about it does seem a little offensive having some person I've never heard of come out of left field complaining about working conditions when from I've found on the net he's a writer for the huffington post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lee-stranahan) and his IMDB credits (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0833234/) don't suggest working at any great studios to boast about. So the fact that really from first glance this individual doesn't even seem to be relevant to our industry looks bad. If someone who's had a long extensive work history with respectable titles and studios under his belt, then maybe this letter would carry some weight with it. Just cause you say you've written about vfx for 20 years doesn't make you a vfx artist to complain about working conditions second hand through other people.

I don't doubt that there have been bad working conditions out there or studios, but in time these practices will work themselves out. If these people aren't standing up for themselves and correcting the issues or moving on then what is some whiny letter from some guy going to do. Case in point like Ben said EA is and was notorious for this, But they have even made strides over time. Best example being the wonderful lawsuit many years back for their bad practices and intern leading to overtime being paid and improving other studios outlook on treating their employees better. Plus really El Burritoh like you said I've heard a few bad tales, but mostly people out at the big studios love what they do and are taken care of. I think it is just a ploy from some guy who wants attention and is taking this chance to do so. If people are unhappy with their work conditions then they should move on and find another place. It is really that simple.

[Billabong]

I honestly don't see how anyone could be offended by this letter, although it does seem that people who are offended are the ones with nice jobs, unfortunately that isn't the case with everyone. Studios are shutting their doors left and right and a few times they aren't even let the staff know until they show up for work.

There are a few other companies as well that are screwing people over, case in point, there is a huge thread on CGTalk about The discovery channel not even paying a guy for his work.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I am just tired of seeing a lot of artists getting the shaft. So whether this letter came from Jeremy Birn or Tom at the sanitation department, I could care less, as long as it turns a few heads and makes them think twice. Then so be it

-B

[Billabong]

OK I just re read through this letter and I stand by what I said. The guy does have a point to a degree.

Additionally, visual effects artist currently work under constant threat from producers of having their work sent off to India or China.

I was actually threatened by that very thing from my employer just three weeks ago if i didnt come down in my prices and guess what, I did

so I say let the guy write the letter, how can it hurt

just my 2cents

-B

[bneall]

I honestly don't see how anyone could be offended by this letter, although it does seem that people who are offended are the ones with nice jobs, unfortunately that isn't the case with everyone. Studios are shutting their doors left and right and a few times they aren't even let the staff know until they show up for work.

A studio shutting down is directly related to the economy, I don't see how someones company going under benefits anyone.

I was actually threatened by that very thing from my employer just three weeks ago if i didnt come down in my prices and guess what, I did


A studio or client choosing lower cost solution. How is this even an issue, I believe its called common sense.

There are a few other companies as well that are screwing people over, case in point, there is a huge thread on CGTalk about The discovery channel not even paying a guy for his work.

Can you link this? I haven't seen it yet.


so I say let the guy write the letter, how can it hurt

Because he has no right or basis to assume that he is a spokesman for me, or any other artist.

[Billabong]

A studio shutting down is directly related to the economy, I don't see how someones company going under benefits anyone.

True



A studio or client choosing lower cost solution. How is this even an issue, I believe its called common sense.
I could really get on a roll with this issue, but I think its best if we leave it alone. I will just say I do not agree with you and leave it be



Can you link this? I haven't seen it yet.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=2&t=652434

[PascalR]

We got paid 70% of what discovery, Evergreen films owed us after 2 years of procedure, thanks to les Normes du travail who did a great job.
I have been working in 2 companies that eventually closed down (meteor studios is one of them), both times we worked without being paid towards the end, and our managers put all their efforts to make us believe things would be fine (while packing their things up before the boat sinks).

Actually I believe companies going down can really benefit to others:
Again, personal experience, in France, 8 years ago, we almost finished the first european full cg movie called Kaena the prophecy, after 6 years of hard work. But fundings went short and company went down. We were bought back by another company who thought this was a chance to finish the movie for little money(which was true).
The movie was not successful so it wasn't such a good deal in the end:p

Even though the reasons are obviously economical in those situations,
I have witnessed some revolting behaviors from company managers.

My 2 cents.

P

[El Burritoh]

I think we need to be careful not to get sidetracked by the crappy economy. What is of greater interest is the behavior of management, no matter the economic condition.

The claim made by Stranahan is that the industry is nearly rampant with professional abuse of VFX artists. Or that's at least the impression he gives.

And so great a generalization is what concerns me, not because I have a job, but because the claim doesn't jive with what I've heard from other people in the industry. And I wanted to know what was true. Is the majority in the dire straits Stranahana portrays, or is the majority getting a pretty good and fair deal?

And it's really about majorites, because there will always be some of every kind of experience out there. It's a fact that some companies screw their own people. But is it a fact that most of them do? That's the claim that I think Stranahan is trying to make, or at least apply it to the industry at large. And that's what I disagree with. He cites no supporting data or surveys, but rather comes out with this plaintive generalization of the industry with simple argumentation. No one is disputing that some artists are getting the short end of the stick. But to make such a broad claim comes across as a little cheap.

And I think it's worth noting two other things:
1) This whole thing seems to be concerning the American segment of the industry. Or am I wrong? Does Stranahan claim these ills are global? [edit: Pascal posted his French experience while I typed this, so there you go]
2) The discussion isn't about how the economy has affected the creative job market. We all know what it has done. It's about the ethics and fairness of studios and industry execs whether money is flowing normally or not. I personally don't think it's as bad as Stranahan says, but my experience is limited, which is why I posed the question to begin with.

[Billabong]

Thank you for taking the time to clarify that Tim. I appreciate it

-B

[bneall]

The discussion isn't about how the economy has affected the creative job market. We all know what it has done. It's about the ethics and fairness of studios and industry execs whether money is flowing normally or not. I personally don't think it's as bad as Stranahan says, but my experience is limited, which is why I posed the question to begin with.

Exactly. So saying a company takes work elsewhere or a company goes under, has nothing to do with the discussion. Unless you think your entitled to specific work and money somehow, or that a business owner actually want his company to go under.

[Billabong]

my apologies for derailing the discussion

-B

[El Burritoh]

I don't think anyone derailed the discussion.

[tonytrout]

Not to derail the discussion any further, but the impression I get from these discussions as an outsider, is of an overworked underpaid and exploited artist workforce for hire with few rights, and increasingly outsourced to lower cost transnationals it seems, and is one reason I do not pursue working in the industry even though I love what comes out of it, another being I probably am paid more out of the industry than within it. It must be very hard for young newcomers full of dreams to hear these sad tales although I hear good things too.

Just to chuck one in here, it sounds like the manual sweatshops before the industrial revolution. All these artists replaced in 20 years time by better software. Tell me it isnt so.

Secondly but not necessarily related. Virtual art seems to have no residual value as a unique item unlike a traditional art piece so the virtual artists work is essentually ephemoral and valueless, since it is mostly mass produced and forgotten in a year, and this is basically the weakness of the position of the individual artists in a collaborative process. Also since films etc are a collaborative business where the team works to realise the directors vision, all the real value of the artistic $ is extracted at the top of the chain. quite medieval and Sheriff of Nottingham with all his minions and paeons is my impression. I guess its a way to make a living. Its the same in the business where I work.

Sorry if I upset anyone, just my thoughts and probably not my place to say but I say it anyway.

[migusan76]

Secondly but not necessarily related. Virtual art seems to have no residual value as a unique item unlike a traditional art piece so the virtual artists work is essentually ephemoral and valueless, since it is mostly mass produced and forgotten in a year, and this is basically the weakness of the position of the individual artists in a collaborative process. Also since films etc are a collaborative business where the team works to realise the directors vision, all the real value of the artistic $ is extracted at the top of the chain. quite medieval and Sheriff of Nottingham with all his minions and paeons is my impression. I guess its a way to make a living. Its the same in the business where I work.

Hmm Tony I think this a good observation. I can't help and recall the bad jobs I've dealt with and what has stood out is the constant lack of respect for my craft. Usually it seems to be big wig money pushers that are this way in our industry. Even the current studio I've been with I've had to deal with this almost on a constant basis. Yet I feel such a thing is apparent in some form and fashion in about every studio. Maybe just to varying degrees and some really bad. At the end of the day we are hired tools to achieve a goal for someone else. I guess all we can do is push through and work our way into a position where we can regain artistic control and have our visions brought to life. Maybe even find satisfaction in all the chaos :)

[El Burritoh]

A Q&A with the writer of the letter:

http://motionographer.com/fairness-for-visual-effects-artists-qa/

[ianucci]

I don't understand how people can get offended by someone who essentially just calling for more rights for employees. He isn't saying everyone who runs an effects company is an *******.

Personally I believe there needs to be a continuous pressure applied on employers (in all industrys) to treat their employees with respect, because, pessimistic as it may be a large proportion of employers will exploit people if they can get away with it. The moment the status quo is accepted, things regress.

The problem with all creative industrys is that they are so competitive that there will always be people in the lower echelons vulnerable to being exploited. I think the higher up the food chain you are the less of an issue this is.

The competitive nature of the industry is also why I expect a lot of people are not really paid what they deserve, at least proportionally compared to management staff

I don't think vfx is particularly beset by more problems than other industry but it has its own unique issues which I wouldn't expect members of more general trade unions to necessarily appreciate.

[Billabong]

Just saw this on CGS and thought I would share it.

This is just dirty, plain and simple

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=59&t=855973

[El Burritoh]

That ought to make Failblog.

[Swoop]

Lee is right ! As VFX Artists we shouldn't appear at the end of the credits....

:)